Anxiety: Breaking The Stigma with Mark Cheverton

This week, we sat down with Mark Cheverton, New York Times Best Selling Author, to discuss his latest novel, "Facing The Beast Within: The Anxiety Of Cameron Poole." Mark's journey as a parent and author has led him to create a book that is a tool for kids and parents who face the challenges of anxiety. We get really deep into Mark's personal story and the inspiration behind this fantasy novel.  The book is a testament to his son's battle with anxiety as a young child. Mark worked with a team of psychologists and mental health professionals to incorporate anxiety coping strategies into the book. His goal is to create a toolbox for kids who may feel isolated in their struggles and offer essential insights to parents who strive to understand their child's anxiety journey. Together, let's embrace Mark Cheverton's work and strive to change the narrative and stigma around anxiety for the better.


Amazon link to "Facing The Beast Within: The Anxiety Of Cameron Poole: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFXDQ6B9

Website: https://markcheverton.com/

Fan fiction page: https://markcheverton.com/fanfic/

Writing Tips page: https://markcheverton.com/writing-tips-from-mark/

Book Themes page: https://markcheverton.com/themes/

Downloadable Minecraft books: https://books.bookfunnel.com/2freeminecraftbooks

Online resources for kids/parents with anxiety: https://markcheverton.com/despair-to-repair-online-resources-for-anxiety-every-parent-should-know/

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Transcript

0:33

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of For The Moms. We are your host. I'm Jessie. And I'm Ashley. And on today's episode, we have a special guest with us. He is a New York Times bestselling author, Mark C heverton. We are so excited to have you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Well, thank you for having me here. This will be exciting! Yes. Yeah, we're really excited that you're here. We love your book. Thank you. So Mark is the author of the award-winning novel, Facing the Beast Within, The Anxiety of Cameron Poole. So it's a fantasy novel and it's for kids aged eight to 16, but we read the book and we love it. And I really do think that older kids would enjoy it just as much. Oh, absolutely. I agree. Can you start by telling us a little about yourself and your background? Sure. So, I was born and raised in Southern California, 15 miles from Disneyland. Oh, nice. And 30 miles from the beach. Oh, 20 miles from the beach. So I went to both of those a lot. I studied physics in college and got a bachelor's and a master's degree in physics. I taught high school physics for 15 years and then left teaching and moved into industry. And now I do research for General Electric as a physicist. And I've done that for 15 years as well. And along the way, I started writing books for kids. So you're really, really smart. I work with really, really smart people. They're really, really smart. Well, you're a part of that. Yeah, you absolutely are. Yeah, it's just it's incredible. What inspired you to write Facing the Beast Within? So my son had anxiety. It showed up when he was in second grade, where it was harder for him to get to school and, you know, we It's funny, we had one of those little ear thermometer things. And you know how those give you a different number every time, right? He would do it over and over until he'd get one that says he's got a fever so that he could stay home. Yeah, he would just do it a hundred times. I got it, 99. And every time it got warmer from him putting it in his ear. Oh, I'm sure. But, you know, he would start getting an upset stomach. He'd get a headache. And he's always been really in tune with his body. So when he says he's sick, we kind of believe him. But when I was a kid and I wanted to dodge school, I'd throw the old stomachache card down. Right. There's no evidence. Sometimes you get your mom to believe it, though. My mom never believed it. And so eventually we thought he was getting sick and we took him to the doctor and the pediatrician says it's probably anxiety. Oh, wow. And so, okay, well, you know, we got a therapist and we tried to do the therapist dance. And all the way through school, this got worse and worse and worse until he would be crying and wailing as we're driving to school, like he's going to the hangman's noose or something. Oh my goodness. And it was just terrible. We put him on meds to help that. We finally tried meds. And the thing with meds is you try one, and you start at the lowest dose, and you slowly ramp up until you find the level that'll work, or you reach the max, and then you gotta ramp back down slowly to get off that one, and so six months has gone by, and you've gotten no anxiety relief from anything. Yeah, it's just side effects from the medication. Yeah, it's just terrible. And so finally, we had to pull him out of school, and I quit my job as a physicist and stayed home with him, and I homeschooled him. Oh, awesome. And now he's in college, he's a junior in college studying computer science and he's just killing it. Oh, that's amazing. That is amazing. And when we pulled him out of school, it was the strangest thing. It's like the anxiety nearly evaporated. There was something about school that was triggering him. We don't know what. I wonder if it was like the amount of kids or just maybe, I know my son always had like test anxiety or just like anxiety to perform in front of other people sometimes. The only thing he could say was, I get upset because I'm afraid I'm going to get upset. Oh. And that's this circular logic that you can't break, right? Right. And so, and I learned later, this is called the thought loop in psychology. And so he would get stuck in that thought loop and he can't get out. And of course he gets upset. And so So a few years ago, I asked him, what were these panic attacks like? What did they feel like to you inside? What was going on in your head? And he described this level of hopelessness and despair and dread when he was going to school that was just shocking to think he was experiencing this and I had no idea. And so I knew I needed to write about this and I needed to share this with other kids so they knew they were not alone in this. So that's why I wrote this book. So how did that make you feel as a parent when you heard, when he, when he explained to you how he felt and how the panic attacks were, how did that make you feel as a parent? Well, as, as a failure, because I'm taking him to school every day. And, you know, for a while my, my, my wife took him and then that wasn't working. So I took over that job and I started doing it. you know what's coming, but you're dragging him towards this terrible thing that's going to happen and you feel like a failure. And because I can't protect him. And so when he told me that, how he felt, I was like, Oh God, I was terrible parent. And there was nothing I could have done. We did everything. Yeah. Yeah. But you still feel terrible. Like you failed him. And so that was off. I can only imagine. And I can only imagine like the hard process you went through with medication. I work in a pharmacy, so I really understand like how long it really takes for medicine to be effective and really like help with whatever issue it's trying to tackle. Because these things are modifying brain chemistry, right? That won't be easy. You got to find the right drug to do that. And, you know, we had some that would work and they'd work for a while. And then they'd stop working and it's all crap. We got to go find another one now. Yeah. Like it was like the body would get used to it. Yeah. Yeah. And then being a child, like a child having to deal with it is just as adults, like we struggled to handle it. So, I mean, a child at that age that really doesn't understand what it really is. Yeah. You know, and you, and you stack on top of that, all the social pressure of going to school and being packed like sardines in this school. Yeah, especially, you know, later elementary, middle school. I mean, that's a brutal time, you know? So that's when we pulled him out when he was in seventh grade. Okay. That's when we pulled him out of school. And he was so happy to be out of that. And so we enrolled him in an online school because if it were me deciding what to teach him, I'm just going to teach him math and physics, right? That's all I know. Yeah. And so we got him into an online school that was very rigorous. did a lot of writing, did a lot of reading, did a lot of history and social studies and everything, because we wanted him to compete in college. Right. And he could. He was well prepared. So that worked out really well. Well, that's amazing. Yeah, that's awesome. But he was excited about this book because, you know, I would be writing and I'd say, hey, when that thing happened, what was it like? Tell me. And so he would tell me and I'd write it. And so he feels like he's helping other kids, too. Yeah, that's amazing. I was just about to ask, did he have a big hand in helping you write the book? So that answered that question for me. Yeah, I asked him frequently, what was that like? Because with my books, I try to make them feel really immersive, like the reader is there with the characters and they're feeling it. And I don't know if that came across in the book when you read it. I told Jesse when I started reading the book, I was like, the detail is insane. Like, you really do feel like you've just stepped in another world and how descriptive everything is. Like, you can really envision it right in front of your face. Which is really good. You know, like, the way that I saw things in my head was incredible because it was just from the words that you used. When I was reading at the very beginning, OK, when you're when when you're going through the book and you're kind of telling the setting of the story and the characters and bringing all that into the very beginning, I really felt the way that the main character, Cameron, felt. Yeah. You know, and I was afraid of that because would somebody read it? Is this going to trigger some kid to have some terrible panic attack or something? You know, I was really concerned about that. And so far, I've heard from parents and kids the opposite. No, because the further that you get into the book, the braver you feel. Like once you read through it, it's like, I feel, I feel what he's feeling, you know, like I can, I can feel that emotion. But then once you read it, like you, you realize that like sometimes some parts throughout the book, he doesn't master his beast, you know, like his anxiety, it, it, it fails at times like it does in real life with everyone. I mean, it's, I just felt that maybe it's because I'm an empath. I'm an empath. So maybe that's why. I feel like I feel everyone's emotions. So maybe that's why. Well, I felt it too, Jessie. OK. Maybe we're all empaths. We're complete opposite. But no, I felt it too. Like, it was so, it just, you get sucked inside of it. And it was so good. Well, I've somehow, you know, it's funny that I've written, I've written 27 books in total. And I'm a number geek, right? I study physics. I do engineering stuff. I still don't understand how it is I can write these books. But I've developed a knack for making the reader feel like they're in that story with them. And I work really hard at that on every book that I write. So I'm glad to hear what you're saying, that you felt that. Oh yeah, I felt like I was inside. Inside of it for sure. OK, so we know the main character, Cameron Poole, is a depiction of your son and his journey. But can you give us some insight on how your son's personal journey with anxiety influenced the story? When I was writing it, I was able to think about certain instances when we were trying to get into school and times when it was really, really bad. Like the scene when he's being he's hiding in the restroom from the soccer players and his anxiety is on overload. I remember that happening with my son when when one of the times we were taking him into school and it was more severe than ever. And that brought back that moment to me as a parent, the the hopelessness of I don't know how to help my kid, but also how he felt, because we talked about that moment frequently. And I was able to draw those emotions into that story and stuff those into Cameron so you could look inside his head and you could feel what he's feeling. Yeah, and that's what we talked about. I had those times a lot. Yeah, and we felt that, yeah. You know, anxiety is such a sensitive and complex topic, especially with kids, right? So how are you able to balance storytelling and address anxiety in a way that's suitable for your target audience? Well, first, when I wrote it, I worked with a team of psychologists, of child psychologists. And I gave them the book and they read it. And they came back to me and said, this is great. When you talk about this thing, that's actually called box breathing. And this thing is called 578 breathing. And this thing is called the thought loop, like I mentioned. And I was able to include all their terminologies in the book. But then they gave me all of their anxiety coping strategies that they teach their patients. And all of those things are in the book as well. So that this kind of becomes like a toolbox for parents to help their kids. But that gave me a lot of things to use, because if I just did the same thing, he's going to count by sevens every time he's anxious. That's going to get boring really quick. And so when I develop the story, I kind of plot out what the story is going to be like ahead of time before I write the chapters. And every place where there's going to be a moment of high tension, that's also a place where I wove in one of those anxiety coping strategies that Cameron would try to use in those moments. And so I tried to not make the book preachy and have it be a how-to guide, because I read a lot of those books about Here's a worksheet you can use with your kid to help with anxiety. And here's a book written by somebody with 12 PhDs who knows all about anxiety. And you read those books, and it's like being in college again. And it's not terribly practical. So I was able to weave those things into the story so it feels kind of seamless to the plot, so that it's not obviously preaching to the kid. Because if it does that, the kid's not going to read it. Right. No. And I think that is so that's so wonderful that you did that. So because you are so descriptive. So if if any of the kids kind of felt like we felt like when we when Cameron was having anxiety, we felt it. And then you add in the breathing technique or something, then they can learn to do that as well. So that's that's really great. What I also really liked about it was if you have two sets of kids, you know, a child that is in therapy, and then a child that isn't in therapy, you know, and maybe doesn't realize that they're dealing with anxiety, or maybe that they do. The kids in therapy, when they read the book, they're like, I've heard of these strategies. Because their therapist is telling them. Right. And then if the kids have never heard about them, then they're like, Well, I've felt that as well, just like Cameron. So maybe I should try these breathing techniques. I should do these things. I think it's genius that you wrote this book. And this is how you did it. I think it's so awesome. I appreciate the word genius, but I think that's a little over-exaggerated. Well, when a parent is telling a kid something, sometimes it goes in one ear and out the other, right? So when they see a cool book like this, and they're reading it, and they're like, oh, OK. Well, I've heard this before. I see Cameron doing it. He's a cool kid in this book, you know? And he's conquering fears and stuff. So I can do that as well. So it's so helpful. And you can't help but to root for Cameron, right? Right. Oh, yeah. You're on his side instantly and you want to see him be successful and you want to see the anxiety coping strategies work. Right. Yeah. And and with my son, when we would do these try coping strategies like positive self-talk, where you tell yourself you're going to be OK and you tell yourself you're going to have a good day. It sounds ridiculous. And for me as a scientist, come on. Really, that's going to do any good? That's ridiculous. However, there's a ton of data that shows that works really, really well. And I tried those things with our son and he could never do it. Right. But I think if he were sucked into a story with a character he really liked and he saw that character do it, I think that would be a different thing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. Not all kids can float through Life Care 3 like old Bobby did. Did you like Bobby though? Oh yeah, I loved Bobby. Bobby was awesome. Bobby was a great friend. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And he's kind of the person we all want to be where we don't care about social pressure or what people think of us or anything. We're just going to be us and enjoy every day. Yeah, he was a great balance to Cameron. How do the characters and their experiences reflect challenges that kids with anxiety may encounter today? Well, certainly kids with anxiety, there's a big stigma that what's wrong with you, right? Even schools, they treat it like a behavior, not a disability necessarily. And so and you see the bullies, you know, picking on Cameron because they can because they know he's going to be afraid. Mm-hmm, and that certainly happens out there with other kids, right? Yeah, and and so people are gonna read this and they're gonna see these kids struggling with anxiety and They see their friends with it out in the real world and I'm hoping this reduces the stigma that's attached to to anxiety That people don't see the kid and just say oh, he's just a crybaby. He can't take it And maybe they'll look a little deeper and say, this kid's struggling with something. And instead of making fun of them, maybe we should help them. Me too. Yeah, there's such a terrible stigma associated with mental health, you know, and it'd be nice to have that not be the case. So people that struggle with these things can feel included instead of feeling alone. Yes, I love that so much. And I totally agree with you that, you know, especially in the school system, it is like, oh, this is a behavior issue. This needs to be fixed. You know, and it's not really addressing like the root of the problem. And and in their defense. So I read a statistic that after covid, 20 percent of kids have anxiety. You know, that's a big number. And schools aren't equipped to deal with that. Yeah. Right. And when I was teaching in California, I had a student who had severe anxiety and she would just break down in class and start to cry. And I didn't know what to do. So I'd pull her out of class and I'd sit in the hallway with her and just talk to her and get her to calm down and leave the class alone. But if a fight broke out in that class and I wasn't in the room and somebody got hurt, I was in big trouble. I'd probably get fired. But I didn't know what to do. And so teachers aren't really equipped for this and schools don't have the resources to deal with this because it's expensive. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So was there any specific messages or lessons that you aim to grasp the young reader's attention through the book? So when we were going through our anxiety with our son, we were totally focused on us, right? We were thinking, first of all, I feel bad because I'm not protecting my son. My son feels bad. We're not looking at other people who might be struggling with the same thing. We're totally looking inward at us. And we feel like we're this little island and we're alone. One of the things I really wanted this book to do is to have kids feel like they're going through the same thing and they're not alone. There's other people out there that are going through this. And so I hope that's something that comes across for kids. Certainly, I want them to see the anxiety coping strategies and maybe they're going to try them and they're going to give them a shot and they're going to believe in them so that they'll be able to help them. And I think that's going to help a lot to be echoing what the therapists are teaching them, that the kids are going to see it in the book. But I think the really big message is going to be for parents, because this becomes a coaching tool where the parents help their child by saying, Hey, you remember when Cameron was doing the ropes course, you know, he didn't use these, these strategies. Maybe you can try some of the ones he tried later in the book, or maybe the parents don't know the anxiety coping strategies. Right. And so maybe this will teach the parents some things that they can use with their kids. I know when we would do our therapy sessions frequently, We'd go in and we'd sit with the therapist for 15 minutes and then they'd kick me out. And then my son and the therapist would talk. I never saw them teaching him coping strategies, so I didn't know anything. And this would have been a great resource for me to give me some tools that I could use with my son while we were driving into school. Oh, absolutely. I think parents do need more resources when it comes to their children's anxiety. Do you think that there are parents out there that don't realize that their children are dealing with such severe anxiety? Oh yeah, I think so. I mean, for us it was kind of obvious he's crying his head off, right? But sometimes anxiety manifests itself as overly aggressive behavior, which is something I just recently learned. And so you could have a child that's acting out or they're cutting or they're doing some kind of self-harm because they're trying to avoid the situation that causes this anxiety. And so if they don't take them in to see a mental health professional, which is hard because there's not a lot of those people out there for kids. that if you don't get some help, it's hard to know what your child's really going through. Right. Sometimes I think it's a pride thing, too, for parents because you just don't want to face the fact that your child is going through something like that. Yeah. One of the things they said early on when we first took our son to a therapist, they were surprised that I was there because they said a lot of times the dads are an obstacle. to getting mental health services for a child. Because dads will say, not my kid, right? Yeah. Especially with the boys, right? Yeah, especially with boys. Right. And they were really surprised and grateful that I was there and I was part of the solution. Yeah, because dads can definitely be tough on the boys. Because it is a pride thing. Yeah. And it does get overlooked, I'm sure, more times than not. Especially with young boys' emotions. You're trained to be tough, right? Right. Yeah. And any kind of acting out or anything is just like a behavior that you're having that is negative. You know, like you're acting out, but it's never, well, why are you acting out? It could be a symptom. Right. Absolutely. Okay. Can you share, and I know, I know we've already shared a few, a few experiences, but can you share experiences from your son's life that had a significant impact on the development of the book? I'd say the one time when I realized that his anxiety was really, really off the charts, when he told me about how he felt, this incident came to mind to me. There was one time when we were having trouble getting him into school, and so the school psychologist would come out and get him. Oh, wow. There was one time when the psychologist told me, just grab his arm and lift him. And she took one arm and I took the other and we're literally dragging him into school. His feet weren't even touching the ground. And we're taking him in and he's bawling his eyes out. And I'm thinking, what the hell am I doing? But here's this PhD in psychology telling me this is the right thing to do. And I took him in like that and he went in and he was so upset. And then I drove to work and I had to pull off over on the side of the road to throw up. I was so upset. Oh my goodness. And I remember this incident really clearly because that's the moment when I said it's time to do something different because this is not working. And when I was writing the book, that's kind of what I was thinking about in that scene when he was being bullied at the beginning was this over the top, you know, anxiety flooding him when he when we were carrying him into school. And that's where that scene came from, is I wanted Cameron to feel that overwhelming despair, so that the reader could see what people are really going through. You made a good point, you know, that psychologist with her degree, you know, your parenting instincts, to me, overshadow someone with this big degree. I mean, it's totally intimidating, right? Yes. And it doesn't mean they're right. No, it doesn't. And at that point, I said, we're not having any more panic attacks at school. If he's having a panic attack, he ain't going in. Yeah. Yeah, like this is done. Because that can't be helping, right? Yeah. There's no way making him feel like, you know, the hopelessness and despair, that doesn't help him at all. And I said, no more. And I would give him a choice. Do you want to go to school or do you want to go home? He wants to go to school, but he knows whether he could or not. And he would say, I can't go to school. And I said, OK, let's go home. And the psychologist is like, but he's not crying or anything. I said, he's gonna, and we're not gonna play that card anymore. It's good that you were able to put your foot down and the dad instincts and you came out and you just jerked him out of school and did what's best. Yeah, I wish we'd done it earlier. Yeah. So, I mean, what was it? Was it like your intuition where you were just like, this is enough? I need to listen to myself and do what's best? Or what was it in the moment? It was that one time where we basically dragged him into school and he was more upset than I'd ever seen him. And I was physically ill. That's when I realized this strategy of forcing him into school when he's so upset, it's impossible to be effective. All it's going to do is scar him even worse and make him not want to be in school even more. And so I talked about it with my wife and we just agreed he can't have these overwhelming panic attacks anymore because there's no way that helps. Right. And the psychologist was kind of pissed. Well, that's good for other parents to hear. You know, that's one of the reasons why we ended up starting this podcast, because we feel like a lot of the times the best advice we have gotten is from other parents. So if there is another parent out there who has a son or daughter with anxiety and continues to do the same thing over and over again, and it's not working and they hear you say, okay, I've listened to the experts. Nothing that the experts are doing is working. I need to listen to my gut instincts and do what's best for my child, you know? That may help them. Yeah, that'll really help some parents kind of take the lead in doing what's best for their child. Right. Now, I imagine some parents are going to listen to this and they're going to hear, oh, he quit his job and he homeschooled his son. Isn't that convenient that he could have quit his job? Because I'd written a lot of other books and I had enough income from those books that I could leave my job. Not everybody can do that. Right. Listen, though, we just did a podcast episode on a working mom versus stay at home mom and all the sacrifices that you have to make when you become a stay at home parent living off of one income. So I do. One of our opinions is that there are some parents out there that could probably sacrifice a little bit more to stay at home with their children and help their children while they're young and put the career on the side. Yeah. And, and save their kid's life. Just like what you're saying that there are some, there are some people, there's some parents that will listen to this and think like how convenient it is for him to do that. But you made sacrifices to help your child. It's as simple as that. And if we didn't have the income from these books, well, we would have sold her house. Yeah, you would have done it. We would have got something small and we would have reduced the expenses so we could live off one income. Because you only get one shot at raising your child and then those are the tools they have for the rest of their life. I love that you said that, because that goes exactly with what we were talking about last week. Yeah, we really, you know, in the topic that we shared last week, it is really debatey. It's very controversial, because so many people feel strongly about their, you know, own opinions, which they're entitled to. But it isn't a privilege, it's a sacrifice. And it's just so important. We love that you feel that way. Though I'll say, I loved staying home with my son for five years. We got so much closer. We did a lot of things we wouldn't have done. It was fantastic. And it was great that there was no more of these terrible panic attacks, too. Yeah. Yeah, we both stay at home with our children. And then this is my first year actually homeschooling my son. And being at home now versus when I worked full time, the difference is insane like I would I would rather stay at home any day of the week yeah you know it's such a great relationship with your children yes you notice more things you have deeper conversations and we've also previously talked about that as well like for example we previously talked about you know when you pick your child up from school and you get in the car you know saying the same sentence like did you have a good day at school and How was your school? Yeah, they're going to get into that repetitive, it was good, you know, and whatever they're dealing with, they're never going to share that with you. And then it just kind of builds and builds and builds. So we just, we really are strong on like having deep conversations with your children and, you know, just, just being a listening ear for when things happen and come up in their lives and just really work hard on making them comfortable to talk to you. Right. Because that's hard for kids, especially if they feel like they're going to be judged or get in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to give too much away for those that want to read the book and read the books with their children. But towards the end of the book, Cameron kind of gets a grasp on, on what he's going through. Yes. Do you think, do you think having a palpable name like the beast for your anxiety is helpful? Is it helpful to put a name on it instead of something like anxiety to help combat those feelings? Well, certainly I'm not a mental health professional. I don't know crap about that, right? I'm a physicist, and I'm a dad, and I'm a writer. But I spoke to somebody for another podcast earlier today. And this person was a therapist, and her kids had anxiety. And she said, they name, oh, this is the worry beast. It was funny, they call it the beast. This is the angry beast. This is the afraid beast. This is the, what are the clutter beast when their heads get too cluttered. with thoughts and stuff. And she said they named the specific thing that the kid is feeling so that they can target that emotion with whatever tool they use. Yeah. And I thought that was fascinating. I think it'd just be helpful from a child standpoint to be able to put a name on it other than just like what they have going on inside. They can explain it better to the parent as well. Absolutely. And and I think that's a great that would be a great tool to use with kids that are struggling with some kind of mental health thing. Especially if, right, something like 50% of kids with anxiety have something else, like depression or ADHD or OCD. And as a parent, you know, your kid's having trouble, you need to know, is this the OCD thing that you got to go do something? and we're not letting you do it, and that's why you're upset? Or is it the ADHD thing that you got too many voices going on, too many thoughts in your head, and you need to simplify that? Right, yeah. That'd be great for parents to know, right? It's also great because if you have a 15 or 16-year-old reading the book, you know, and they have anxiety with society the way it is now, you know, mental health isn't often talked about. It's talked about more here, but it's not, it's kind of frowned upon in a way in certain situations. So it would be helpful. It would be really helpful for the kids to be able to call it something different because they might not want to say out loud, like, I have anxiety because people kind of like, oh, mental health or anxiety, you know? Yeah. What's wrong with you? Right. The thing is, there's nothing wrong with them. They just process data differently. That's what I've learned with our son. He just processes information differently, and he reacts to it differently than we do. Yeah. I would imagine with a kid who's like 16, you know, thank God we don't have to go back to high school, right? Oh, gosh, I know. But, you know, if a kid has anxiety and he's at school, well, there's probably a lot of different triggers for their anxiety. Is this a social thing? Is this a bully thing? Is this a test thing? Is it a, I'm afraid I'm gonna fail and disappoint you thing? And maybe having names for those things so that you know which one is going on in his head. Probably it'd be really helpful, right? Yeah, I agree. Was your son bullied at school for having anxiety? Not really because it started so early. Well, he was always really, really quiet. So he only had a small group of friends. When he was in middle school, the middle school was connected to the high school for some stupid reason. Wow. And so big kids would sometimes walk through the middle school and bump into kids and throw an elbow here and there into kids as they'd walk by. And my son got one of those ones. That's when you fight the mom. I know, right? That's when you go to the parents. But he didn't really seem to ever complain about bullying or anything. OK, I didn't know if the bullies in the book kind of were something that your son faced as well. Yeah, not at all, thankfully, at least as far as I know. So I feel like we already kind of answered this question, but I still wanted to ask you, like, if you wanted to put it in summary, you know, how do you hope that facing the beast within will benefit young readers dealing with anxiety? I hope they see that they're not alone, that there's other kids like them, because that's hard to recognize when you're in the depth of this. I certainly hope that all the coping strategies I learned from those psychologists is going to help kids because maybe they'll be willing to try them or they'll believe in them. or parents will help them with them. But I think there's one huge benefit that's really more for the parents than for the kids. And that is when my son would have these terrible panic attacks, and I'd bring him home. And well, that's kind of a teachable moment, right? We should be able to talk about it. But during the panic attacks, you got this fight or flight mode going on in your head, your body's flooded with adrenaline. And the thing that follows that adrenaline rush is severe fatigue. And so he'd get really tired. He doesn't want to relive those feelings. He doesn't want to talk about him not being able to go to school because he probably feels like a failure. And he wanted to go to school and he can't like the other kids can. So he felt bad. So whenever I talked to him about him, he just shut down. He couldn't talk about it at all. But if I had this book, I could say, let's talk about Cameron when he couldn't do the ropes course. Or let's talk about when Cameron got afraid when he was in the spooky tunnel. And you could talk about Cameron's anxiety and Cameron's problems. And that's a less threatening discussion for a kid. Kind of like play therapy, like playing with toys if they don't feel comfortable enough to just sit down and have a big conversation. Right. So I think this is really going to be the real power of the book, I believe. is it's going to enable these difficult discussions with parent and child that you normally can't have because the child doesn't want to talk about their anxiety or their panic attack. So I would have loved this book when we were going through this. Like crazy, I would have loved it. Yeah. Well, as a parent reading it, I learned a lot. I did too. Yeah. I think it's also great because it makes kids feel inclusive. A lot of times I believe that kids that suffer from anxiety feel isolated. They feel like, why am I not like everybody else? Why am I so different? Why can't I do things so easily like everyone else? Which just adds to the anxiety. Right. And that's what I really liked about the book was he had his great friend Bobby and he always and he questioned that in the book. He was just wondering how Bobby could just sail through and not let it get to him, you know. So I think the book is great because it shows them that like They're not alone. They're not by themselves. There are other people, other kids that deal with the same thing and that they can overcome their beast in certain situations. Do you think, I'm wondering what you think, kids who aren't anxious who read the book, because I think kids that are fans of like the Percy Jackson books or the Harry Potter books are going to love this because it's a fun, exciting fantasy adventure. But kids that don't have anxiety and read it, is this going to help reduce the stigma around anxiety? Because they're going to separate Cameron from the anxiety and maybe see that Cameron's just a normal kid. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think that they may, if they're not a child that deals with anxiety, they may, it may pop up a light bulb and say like, Oh, well, so-and-so at school, this kind of looks similar to what I'm reading. And maybe I shouldn't make fun of him, or maybe I should, I should acknowledge him that he's having a tough time, but he's still a kid just like me. Exactly. It could be used as a tool for kids that don't have anxiety to help kids that do have anxiety around them. Yeah. I hope it'll do that. That would be great, right? I believe it will. Not only is it really cool and there's creatures in it, but it's also super educational. So I think that's why it makes it so diverse and so fun to read. Did you two read the e-book or the print book? The e-book. Ah, so you didn't see the flip book, did you? No, not, well, I want to get the, the print book so my son can read it. Cause I don't, I don't want him reading it on his iPad or anything like that. When he reads, I want him to have a book in hand. Um, so I, my plan is to get it for him and to let him read it. And so he, cause he loves, you know, he loves stuff like that. He loves Harry Potter. And so it's definitely going to be something for him to enjoy. So I put in the bottom corner of every odd page an image, and there's one on every page. And when you flip through the pages, you see an animation. Oh, that's awesome. Like those little flip books that when I was a kid, we would get them in the Cracker Jacks boxes. Yeah. Yeah. If you were lucky, you got a flip book instead of those stupid rub-on tattoos. Right. Yeah. But yeah, so kids love that flip book because they can flip through it. and see a gargoyle chasing a kid, and then the kid turns around and destroys the gargoyle. Oh, yeah, that's awesome. I love that. That is awesome. There was a link in the e-book that showed the animation. Oh, we'll have to go back and look at it. I didn't see it. Yeah, there's a link you can click on and see it, but it's more fun when you can flip through the pages and see him running along and battle the gargoyle. Oh yeah, Aiden would love that. That's right up his alley. I just jumped right into the e-book, so we'll have to go back. Yeah. But one thing that I really liked was towards the end where, you know, they're battling and Cameron realizes when he's talking to Leonard and Carl, the bullies, they're talking to him about what is going on with themselves and what problems they have with their family. And Cameron, almost like he has an epiphany, and he's like, they have struggles just like I have struggles. And he just made that connection that we're not different. We're very similar to each other. Kids in school are pretty similar too. But they try to hide that so they can look perfect, right? I made it a point of, I remember reading a book about Pixar and their movies, which who doesn't love Pixar movies, right? But in their stories, every character that's in the Pixar movie has a character arc of some kind. They have a problem they have to solve. And I try to do that with my books, that every character has some kind of issue that they're going to resolve at the end of the story. I know. I love how the end, it brought it back to that course that he had trouble with in the beginning. Did you get a little bit of a tear at the end? Maybe just a little. Yes. I do. Every time I read it, I do. I love that ending. Yes, we did. We were talking about it before the interview started. Yeah. Just like being able to balance like storytelling and then the coping strategies and just the storyline. Everything is so good. And the ending was great. Yeah. It brought it all together. Yeah. I usually struggle with endings, but I feel like I nailed that one. You did. Absolutely. You nailed it. So what I could add is, For me, when I was taking my son to school and these terrible panic attacks and everything, I think one of the things that helped me, my therapy was writing, because I was still writing my Minecraft novels. And that writing really seemed to help me express my emotions. I imagine the books during this period were a little darker than some of the others. Don't know but you know the writing really really helped me and I didn't recognize it till till years later But when I started writing all my Minecraft books, I started getting stories from kids from all over the world That they would just send me their story. They decided if I could write a Minecraft story They could too and so they'd send me a story and I have probably a thousand of them on my web page Wow, there's a there's a fanfiction tab at the top And I've gotten a lot of stories from kids that would be about their struggles in their life. And instead of being a journal, this is a creative writing thing that they would write about a character and they'd create a story. And so parents that are listening, if they have kids that are struggling with anxiety or ADHD or something, one way they can express themselves is to write a story and send it to me and I'll post it on my website. You can email it through my website. And I'll post it and then other kids will comment on it and read it. And if any kid says something mean or disrespectful, I delete that comment because this is a kid safe place. Kids can send me their stories and they can post them up online and it'll be there for other kids to read. That's incredible. That's awesome. You'll have to send it to us and we'll post it because that's an awesome outlet to go to. If a child doesn't feel like talking about it out loud or with certain people, they can get on there and send you a message or send you a story. Maybe they could write the next story about Cameron, right? Oh, yeah. That'd be amazing. Or about Bobby. Wouldn't that be fun to write just about Bobby? Oh, yeah. There's also a tab that's called Writing Tips. When I'm writing, sometimes I struggle with coming up with, let's say, a name for a character. There's actually a science to how you choose your names for characters in writing. And so I wrote a little mini lesson and I posted on that writing tips page. And there's a little video of me describing how I do this and give them some examples. There's a whole bunch of writing tips in there for kids. And quite a few elementary school teachers use these in their classes. And a lot of homeschooling parents use them as well. Oh yeah, I'll have to look at that. Kids can go there and see how I design plot or how I do a character arc or how I describe characters. And they can look at those tips and then they can integrate that into their next story and then send it to me. Oh, that's an amazing resource too. I can't wait to dive into that because we're in homeschooling right now. learning to write essays and papers. So that'll be perfect. And then lastly, every one of my Minecraft books has a theme. Like the first one I wrote, I told you because of a cyberbullying incident with my son. I wrote about that. That book was wildly successful. And so I recognize that my books are like a megaphone I can use to tell kids something. And so I can stand on my soapbox and shout to them. So the next story was about anxiety and the next story was about facing your fears and the next story was about sibling relationships and troubles in that. And so there's a menu tab at the top that says themes and you can click on that and you can see all of my books and you can see what the theme is for each one of them. So if you have a kid, I had a parent contact me and say, my kid only sees the negative things in life. and I wish you had a book that could help him. Well, my next book was about seeing only the negative. And so I wrote a book for that, and then I sent them a copy, an autographed copy. Oh, that is awesome. Yeah. Maybe there's a theme there that would resonate with a parent and the kid. And it's Minecraft, so I guarantee you kids are going to like it. Right. Because it's Minecraft, right? Yeah. That's an amazing resource for parents, because sometimes we don't know how to help them cope. And when they see it in such a cool book, you know, your books are way cooler than mom and dad. So when they see that. Fortunately, everything's cooler than mom and dad. Yeah. Yeah. It's super helpful. Well, speaking of you, I know you just mentioned that maybe a kid could write in and continue the story of Cameron. Is there going to be another part of that story? Is there going to be any upcoming books? What's the word that I'm trying to look for? A sequel. Yes, a sequel. So I actually have the second book done, which is called Cameron and the Shadow Wraiths. And he's going to keep dealing with anxiety, but he's also going to deal with self-esteem as well in the second book. Awesome. Well, when it's ready, you got to let us know so we can read it and maybe you can come back and we can talk about it. Yeah, we can have you back on and do the same thing. What I'm hoping is come July when it's released, if that's when I do it, I don't know yet. I'll have a lot of stories about what parents have told me about facing the beast within, and we could share those. Oh, yeah, that'd be awesome. Oh, yeah, it would. That would be really fun. Let's do it. Let's do that. So yeah, I'll absolutely reach out to you when that book is ready to go. Oh, yay. I'm excited. Yeah, me too. Also, I've written two books, two Minecraft books for kids that I wrote for the sole purpose of motivating reluctant readers to read, and they're very successful at this. And so I'll send you over the link to this so you can put it in the show notes, but kids can go and download these two books One of them's called The Virus, and the other's called Elytra Perils. And they're about Minecraft, and kids are going to love it. And even if kids don't like to read, it's Minecraft, and so they're probably going to read it. I will be giving those to my son ASAP. My goal is it gets more kids reading, and so I hope it does. Yeah. Well, send it over to us, and we'll put it in the show notes so that everyone can access that. Absolutely, I will. All right, Mark. Well, we had such a good time talking with you. We love your book. We love what you've done. This is a super helpful tool for not only kids, but parents. Can you just tell us where we can go to find your website and then where your books are sold? So my website is my name, markcheverton.com. That's C-H-E-V-E-R-T-O-N. and you'll see all the resources for kids there and writing resources and fan fiction and all that kind of good stuff. You can find me on Facebook and Twitter as well, but my books are available probably everywhere, but most likely parents are going to go look at Amazon and so you'll find them easily available there. Perfect, a perfect Christmas gift too. Yeah, oh yeah. There you go. All right, and you can come hang out with us over at Instagram. Our Instagram handle is at ForTheMomsPod. That is at ForTheMomsPod. Thank you so much for joining us, Mark. That is it, we're out. We love you guys. We'll see you next Wednesday. And always remember, we are For The Moms. For The Moms. We're gonna do it one more time. We're gonna do For the Moms again, okay? And always remember, we are For the Moms.